Curse

Rak Orgon of Beowulf · Jan 28, 2009, 10:53 PM // 22:53

/signed for both,
no scatter for [ray of judgment] is ridiculous, the AB and JQ npcs just sit there like "duh AoE damage and burning i think i'll stay in it"
mostly /signed for the 1...3...5 foes in area for [cry of pain]

Icy The Mage · Jan 28, 2009, 10:58 PM // 22:58

Tbh, RoJ is an elite skill! It causes scatter as soon as you cast it twice because you've been in their aggro range for too long (and if you don't cast it twice/member then you're doing something wrong and need to improve your team-build). That's why the tanks have grasping earth! It also takes up your ELITE skill. It is a bit overpowered in PvP areas as it does 40+14(burning) armor ignoring AoE damage every second, but it's far from over-powered. The fact that people are running it with shutdown such as "Tease-Gwen's" and the like is what's making it over-powered... Synergy people, SYNERGY! People combine skills on the same team build for a reason! So other than maybe increasing the recharge by about 10 seconds for a PvP-only version, I can't see anything that's wrong with RoJ atm...
/unsigned for RoJ nerf, long live the lazers

For CoP, I've seen a lot of posts saying how it's as simple as "1,2,3 profit".
To be honest, any number of things can hinder your spike:
Your tank or tanks making a single mistake = finished
Not taking a quest at the proper time = done
Drawing un-necessary aggro or spending too long spiking = aggro + wipe

You actually need experienced people who know what they're doing to complete and "breeze through" these elite areas. (Trust me, it's not easy breezy). If you actually had an idea of how much stress one of these tanks are going through, if your HB doenst infuse 5 times in 4 seconds or you put spirits in the wrong place, 1 person doesn't cry, you wipe, your whole party dies, and it's game over. No rewards for you.

Now... with Ursan Blessing... you can (could have done) do anything you want! Just run up into a mob with your 110+ armor and 900+ hp and spam all your insanely powerful attack skills and knocklock with no effort whatsoever. It requires no co-ordination, and you don't even need to know where you're going or what you're doing, you just mass-wipe everything with insane amounts of damage and knock-downs. This was all fine and dandy until A-Net realized that people were only taking warriors as Ursans because of their insane base armor, signet of stamina, and ability to take mantras, etc... A-Net didn't like the fact that only Warriors were being taken as Ursans, so now Ursan blessing functions the same for every class.
With Cry of Pain being a PvE-Only skill, anyone can use it; there's no profession discrimination. You don't have groups of "7+warriors with 1 HB monk and every single other profession is useless" teams running around, you actually form groups of eles, mesmers (which are FINALLY seeing some use in PvE), necros, dervishes, sins, monks, rangers, etc.. Anything that has enough energy to echo and hit CoP twice (hell even paragons can do it) is being accepted into these groups, because they don't need to re-make and spend time grinding a new character just to get into 1 farm team!
/Unsigned for CoP nerf, it's fine the way it is.

noneedforclevernames · Jan 28, 2009, 11:02 PM // 23:02

I think Cry of Pain should be changed to this:
If target foe is hexed, interrupt target foe. If target foe was using a spell all foes in the area take 100 damage.

Gun Pierson · Jan 28, 2009, 11:25 PM // 23:25

Ok I'm going to be honest, I really like Ray of Judgment as it is now. At the same time I realise you people got a point.

With much pain in the heart I /sign.

(would appreciate if it would stay untouched in pve though)

Beautiful songs don't last long. Still have some vanquishing to do, so I hope I can drag myself in there and get over with it before the nerf arrives.

FengShuiDove · Jan 28, 2009, 11:37 PM // 23:37

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rak Orgon of Beowulf

no scatter for [ray of judgment] is ridiculous, the AB and JQ npcs just sit there like "duh AoE damage and burning i think i'll stay in it"

And they readily move out of [Savannah Heat]? To be honest, if it's about NPCs/heroes not moving to avoid damage, then we need a complete change in the AI.

If RoJ is really highly overpowered in PvP, lower the damage, increase recharge, or burning on each "pulse" change to first or last pulse. Whatever it is, this should be a PvP/PvE split skill. Fixing scatter is one thing, nerfing the skill itself is another.

As for CoP, it's really no more substantial than any other coordinated team spike/pressure has ever been.

Overall, /notsigned

Dei Gracia · Jan 28, 2009, 11:49 PM // 23:49

just play the game and stop QQ'ing about skills?

/flameshield

Tyla · Jan 29, 2009, 12:05 AM // 00:05

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

/signed for RoJ
/notsigned for CoP
Instead make it so that CoP removes the hex after , like [Shatter Delusions] but AoE. But still that would a hard nerf too.

I agree with the above. It does 40...100 *FC spec* damage on a single enemy, but if it removes a hex it does 30...100 *FC spec* damage in an adjacent radius. Removes 1...3 *title spec* enchantment from all nearby foes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dei Gracia

just play the game and stop QQ'ing about skills?

Just play the game and stop "QQing" about people "QQing" about skills? This is a place for discussing suggestions, not "stop changing shit".

Stolen Souls · Jan 29, 2009, 12:05 AM // 00:05

/signed for RoJ causing the normal amount of scatter, though I must admit...the way it is now makes Smiting...dare I say it...FUN!

/not signed for CoP. People just want to complain about the newest team build. If CoP was nerfed, all the QQers would just move on the the next team build that emerges.

Tyla · Jan 29, 2009, 12:10 AM // 00:10

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

/not signed for CoP. People just want to complain about the newest team build. If CoP was nerfed, all the QQers would just move on the the next team build that emerges.

Once again...

If there was a skill that killed everything in the entire map which was 1 energy, 1 recharge and 1/4 cast, would you say the same thing? People would move onto something powerful, but no spike is even half as powerful as a CoP spike.

I do, however find it ironic that you support a nerf for RoJ, which is a lot weaker than CoP in terms of dealing damage when used by more than one person.

[DE] · Jan 29, 2009, 12:12 AM // 00:12

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akolo

http://guildwarsguru.com/forum/showt...347384&page=13

just to say that the teams getting fast times thanks to an overpowered gimmick, obviously isnt relying on an overpowered gimmick.

oh and like athrun previously touched, this isnt anything like the ursan era.

With ursan anyone could just put up UB on a bar and be failproof and get a decent time.

with cry of pain its different... 50% of the pugs fail, and those who do manage are 30-90 min slower than it should be.
oh and what do you think happens if perma dies or looses aggro (were talking about pugs here, spikes will take long enough for the mobs to run rampage on casters most of the time)

to be honest, cry of pain isnt more overpowered than (most) other pve skills, if anything is overpowered its the "spike" you make of it. unless you want to nerf anything that can potentially be used as a spike(and if you checked the link theres many ways of making a spike), theres not much you can do about this "problem".

anyway /sign for making roj scatter as its only natural

/your idea for cop doesnt quite cut it, however if someone finds a good idea to "fix" it then ill gladly sign it.

Would just like to quickly point out that the Deep isn't the best of testing sites; especially considering the time completion differences of a 'normal' group and what we consider a 'gimmick' group is minimal. Testing what is OP and what is not should be done in an environment where the difference between the 2 times of a 'balanced' group and 'cry' group are significant (i.e. Urgoz, FoW).

Regardless, making RoJ cause scatter seems to be the best route for a fix. As far as CoP goes I don't have much of an opinion on what the best way to change it would be.

Stolen Souls · Jan 29, 2009, 12:20 AM // 00:20

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

Once again...

If there was a skill that killed everything in the entire map which was 1 energy, 1 recharge and 1/4 cast, would you say the same thing? People would move onto something powerful, but no spike is even half as powerful as a CoP spike.

No. if there was a skill like that, I would not say the same thing. Good thing that has absolutely nothing to do with what I said, and there are no skills like that, huh?

I "support" the nerf to RoJ because it's only natural that an AoE spell should cause scattering. Doesn't really take much thinking to figure that out, lol. It's a glitch or oversight in the mechanics, that is causing its "problem". ^^

The CoP whining, on the other hand, is a bit different. It gives me the feeling that people cry about things like these just to have something to whine about (whatever seems to be the most powerful skill/build atm). Which is why I didn't sign this part (and I have the right not to. No real reason to argue with me about it, honestly.) There, I explained my reasoning (even though I didn't have to). And just to make sure things are clear, when I said "all the QQers would move on to the next thing that emerges", I meant the complainers...whatever is next in line as most powerful would be next to be targetted with "oh muh gawd...2 strong, KILL IT!". But whatever floats everyone's boat. I'll just restate what I said and go back to playing, WITHOUT worrying about how others play. ^^ "RoJ = signed. CoP = Not Signed."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tyla

I do, however find it ironic that you support a nerf for RoJ, which is a lot weaker than CoP in terms of dealing damage when used by more than one person.

I never used "cryway", in case you have that in your head for some reason, lol. I use the skill on my mesmer, to do normal PvE with heros/hench.

To put it simply, and to avoid any other wild assumptions, I'll put it this way. If AoE wasn't SUPPOSED to cause scattering, I wouldn't /sign a nerf for either of them.

Tyla · Jan 29, 2009, 12:33 AM // 00:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stolen Souls

I "support" the nerf to RoJ because it's only natural that an AoE spell should cause scattering. Doesn't really take much thinking to figure that out, lol. It's a glitch or oversight in the mechanics, that is causing its "problem". ^^

The CoP whining, on the other hand, is a bit different. It gives me the feeling that people cry about things like these just to have something to whine about (whatever seems to be the most powerful skill/build atm). Which is why I didn't sign this part (and I have the right not to. No real reason to argue with me about it, honestly.) There, I explained my reasoning (even though I didn't have to).

I'm arguing with your disagreement and its reasoning - think about it, no game will be perfectly balanced and there will always be flaws in the concept of balance. As long as there are multiple variables, there will be inbalance, but with one variable being a lot higher in power than the rest, it's incredibly inbalanced compared to the rest - skill level required to do this is also something to look at.

Quote:

I never used "cryway", in case you have that in your head for some reason, lol. I use the skill on my mesmer, to do normal PvE with heros/hench.

To put it simply, and to avoid any other wild assumptions, I'll put it this way. If AoE wasn't SUPPOSED to cause scattering, I wouldn't /sign a nerf for either of them.

The main power of Cry of Pain is that its a single skill causing a lot of armour ignoring damage wit a short recharge, low skill slot requirement and the low energy requirement for the performance. Multiply this and you've got trouble. I'm not assuming anything, I'm agreeing to a nerf because in one field of usage, it's stupid powerful. RoJ is also another incredibly powerful skill, but lesser in terms of dealing damage compared to CoP - if you feel the way you do, why not just support a buff to all AoE removing the AI's ability to move out and kite?

DarkGanni · Jan 29, 2009, 12:45 AM // 00:45

My Version of these skills:

CoP: For each mesmer hex on target foe, one additional foe is struck.

RoJ: As already stated, add scatter effect.

MisterT69 · Jan 29, 2009, 01:10 AM // 01:10

/notsigned for either for a few reasons:
1. the game is ending soon; it's obviously dying and people wanna get rich and farm some money to finish up their HoM's. Why the hell must people must constantly complain about an economy and broken skills in PVE when it doesn't hurt the people not using the skill. Hopefully GW2 will fix these problems

2. There's going to be another build made then. People thought nerfing ursan was the end of SC PVE until someone found out a new way to easily 1/2 the time of most SC's with CoP. Who's to say a faster build won't come out eventually?

3. Why not nerf everything in PVE that allows us to be faster...Nerf cons, nerf physicalway, nerf orders, nerf critical sins, eliminate all PVE skills, eliminate anything that changed this game from prophecies. Make no elite area completable within 3 hours and watch the population drop....and then we wait 2 years when GW2 comes out and see within a few months its in the clearance section of Wal-Mart because frankly no one will care about the game anymore.

Bobulation · Jan 29, 2009, 01:11 AM // 01:11

/sign the 1..3..5 effect for CoP, it would make it still as effective in normal PvE play, but not in Cryway.

Marverick · Jan 29, 2009, 01:23 AM // 01:23

Umm there's a very simple fix for Cry of Pain that makes much more sense rather than restricting it to a certain number of foes...

Make the damage occur only when you interrupt a skill.

Bye-bye to 1-2-3 spikes...

Also /signed for RoJ scatter. Although I can see groups circumventing this easily by throwing Churning Earth into the mob. But meh, that's still better than what we have right now.

draxynnic · Jan 29, 2009, 02:53 AM // 02:53

Quote:

Originally Posted by kostolomac

/notsigned for CoP
Instead make it so that CoP removes the hex after , like [Shatter Delusions] but AoE. But still that would a hard nerf too.

{snip}

That's because there are multiple cryers , if you played as a single cryer the damage ain't that impresive.

These are my thoughts as well. If you make CoP 'eat' the feeder hex, this means it's still available for one or two Mesmers in a balanced group to provide some reliable damage assist. However, it would make the multi-person-echo-spike more difficult to pull off - the standard 5-person cryway team would need to either hit a different target each (and even then you'd need two AoE mesmer hexes at minimum) or stack 10 hexes on the spike target... and I don't think there are that many cheap, fast-casting Mesmer feeder hexes in the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FengShuiDove

And they readily move out of (Savannah Heat)? To be honest, if it's about NPCs/heroes not moving to avoid damage, then we need a complete change in the AI.

If RoJ is really highly overpowered in PvP, lower the damage, increase recharge, or burning on each "pulse" change to first or last pulse. Whatever it is, this should be a PvP/PvE split skill. Fixing scatter is one thing, nerfing the skill itself is another.

And this is the other side of what I was going to say. Making targets move out of RoJ when they don't move out of other AoEDoTs seems a little strange. Personally, I'd be inclined to make NPCs in PvP scatter under any AOE effect that does more than a certain amount of damage in a single pulse.

For general use... I do note that RoJ is significantly more effective than similar skills even given its elite nature (~40 damage/pulse plus burning cf ~25 damage/pulse for the likes of Symbol of Wrath and Balthazar's Aura). This might indicate that it could afford a paring back of the pulsed damage.

Spike Stritter · Jan 29, 2009, 03:19 AM // 03:19

nerfstick awayyyyyyyyyyyyyyy

/signed

Nuclfus · Jan 29, 2009, 03:26 AM // 03:26

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowmoon

Find it funny SY or TNTF isn't on your list, but I guess you must play heavy physicals. I'll be ready for a CoP nerf when there a nerf to the imbagon.

QFT. Why the double standard, y'all?

/notsigned

pingu666 · Jan 29, 2009, 03:31 AM // 03:31

cry of pain is only overpowered when used as some mass spike, on a single mesmer its good, but not omgwtfbbq good. probably the best skill on a mesmers bar, but then mesmer skills/class are weaker in pve than most.

no more tastey than critical agility